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Old 12-16-2012   #1
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Lightbulb The most advanced MMO Toolkit, available in 2013!

Start building your dreamed RPG/Survival/Adventure/FPS today and integrate the game mechanics when the toolkit is released in 2013. Most mechanics are based on Skyrim/Fallout, but are greatly enhanced:

✧ Wizard editor extension in several languages (create games without programming)
✧ Language translations
✧ Full control configuration
✧ Character customizer
✧ Character controller with free-running features
✧ Inventory system
✧ Quest and achievement system
✧ Dialog system
✧ Combat technique designer
✧ Level and skill tree system
✧ Lockpicking mechanics
✧ Mining and harvesting mechanics
✧ Crafting mechanics
✧ Hunting mechanics
✧ Trading system
✧ Map and dairy with management mechanics
✧ Economy system with auto-balanced degradation dynamics
✧ Government system
✧ Fully scalable networking
✧ Private persistent worlds for deep interaction
✧ Socialization with local and global messaging
✧ Monetization

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Old 12-16-2012   #2
paulus54
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sounds nice but i have seen the movie on youtube , i am not overwelmd by it,
can you show more video ?
your info looks great the video not, sorry
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Old 12-17-2012   #3
cronocr
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Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated. Yes the video is ugly, because I'm working on the mechanics only. The idea is that creative developers will customize the toolkit with stories and arts. Some developers are interested already and they are working on their titles in parallel, so these games will help showing what the toolkit can do. I'm finishing the combat technique designer, after that I'll make another video and publish it
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Old 12-17-2012   #4
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Can we test it for you?
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Old 12-17-2012   #5
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yes we can help testing, if you dont mind sharing to us, we can help you find bugs etc...

one more thing, what is the server backend you using?
unity networking, ulink, smartfox, electrotank.........
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Old 12-17-2012   #6
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smartfox2x here and happy to do some testing

most are using unity networking or photon
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Old 12-17-2012   #7
cronocr
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Thank you guys! I'll release the toolkit for free when I'm finished implementing all of the features in my design document. Then you will be able to catch bugs I'm making my own server with PHP and Java.
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Old 12-17-2012   #8
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thanks for the info back i do apreciated it , and i would love to test it out,
iam a network specialist en working with unity 3D is a hobby and gives me alot fun,
i love to play arround en see what ppl make, also i play the wow game for over 6 years now, and i think i am the oldesd one here 54 ;-)
and i dident see a mouse movement script like in wow the scripts hee come near to it but they arend , like zoming in is zoming in your face like in wow ect, ect
but thats of topic, love to hear from you

best regards and succes
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Old 12-17-2012   #9
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Sounds very interesting, Currently i'm in the concept design phase of my game, Your toolkit would greatly excel the speed of which i create my game!
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Old 12-17-2012   #10
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very nice :X I love it:X
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Old 12-17-2012   #11
cronocr
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I'll check out the WOW zooming feature, sounds interesting.
And yes, you can start designing and building the game now, and then integrate the toolkit with your game to complete it. I'll continue making videos of the latest features.
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Old 12-17-2012   #12
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@cronocr
why would you want to create the server backend from scratch?

that will take you many months even years just to create the server.

why dont you use the existing professional and polished servers like
smartfix and or electrotank which are made in java and very polished apps can handle hundread of K's of concurrent users.

i recomend you not to reinvent the wheel, it will give lots of headaches. networking server is not fun at all.

instead focus on mmo game mechanics, forget about creating your own server, is a paiiiinnnn, believeme bro.

just my .02
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Old 12-17-2012   #13
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Yes, I know how difficult it is to develop the server, but I have reached a level at which I must confront this challenge I started creating frameworks in assembly language (good old DOS days), then worked and completed a 2D engine with DirectX 7, later on developed a multiplatform engine with OGL and DX 9 support, and a framework in Objective C with OGL support for Mac/iOS. Unity is a great engine, and I want to complement it with a quasi-engine to create games without programming, with all the desired mechanics that a developer will need and implemented in an advanced way. It took me several months to investigate and plan all these mechanics, hope to see great games being created with it.
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Old 12-17-2012   #14
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Best of luck with your project dude.
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Old 12-17-2012   #15
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yup seems like a very undertaking task for a single developer,

i wish all the best in your project
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Old 12-17-2012   #16
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Boing! Sounds cool, how would you compare it to ORK? Will it come with a demo scene like ORK or just scripts? Thanks for your hard work.
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Old 12-17-2012   #17
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Old 12-17-2012   #18
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Thanks for your support guys!

The main difference with ORK and other RPG/MMO toolkits is that you create whole games without programming. There are a few logic symbols to control the gameplay, i.e. what dialog to show after completing a quest, but it's very simple, not even similar to writing actual code. Another difference is that the most desirable mechanics are already implemented, while other toolkits are foundations on which you have to develop your own mechanics. I took several months examining modern games and their mods, writing down the most desirable mechanics and creating advanced versions of each. The inventory is more advanced, the lockpicking is more advanced, combat, crafting... even economy and government. To give you an example, when picking locks in Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout you have 2 tools (lockpick and lever) and 1 part (tumblers/angular match); locks in this toolkit are based on that system, but there are 4 tools and 6 parts. As a creative developer you can build the insides of locks making them as simple or as complex as you want. And all the components can be themed to fit any age (medieval, modern or futuristic). Whenever I found a desirable mechanic I took my time to enhance it make ease the customization for the creative developer.
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Old 12-17-2012   #19
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Try and take advantage of modular open source frameworks like php=wordpress/yii, java=http://www.reddwarfserver.org/. Wish you the best of luck you are going to need it :P
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Old 12-17-2012   #20
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Hey, great job... how much is the price going to be? With you all the best... Good luck!
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Old 12-17-2012   #21
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Thanks! Indeed months ago I was unsure if I could finish this, but now that I have managed to implement all the foundation code (client and server) I know this can be finished... unless I die in the process LOL Now it's a job of patiently developing all the mechanics as designed. I have worked on engines that took 1-3 continuous years, I even quit some day jobs to work on them fulltime. This is something I just love doing.

The toolkit will be FREE!! I just want to participate in those great games you will be doing with it. So you don't get only the most advanced MMO toolkit out there (I'm proud, yeah), you will also get my support. Let's make some cool games ppl!
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Old 12-18-2012   #22
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You sound rather convincing, I'm greatly looking forward to your release! Best of luck!
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Old 12-18-2012   #23
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@cronocr,

do you already have the backend server done?
how about all the advancement and basic mmo mechanics from both client server?

if not what exactly do you have?
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Old 12-18-2012   #24
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may suggest you open source it with a license that seem most flexible for you (GPL, CC, Apache, MIT, etc your choice)

- More developers helping you
- More devs helping = faster dev time
- The project will be kept alive even if you're engaged elsewhere (real life, work, etc)

and in the future if you do decide to make money of it, you can always supply an "Enterprise" or a "Commercial" business model (Take a look at the Unreal Development Kit licensing system).

Why not make a proprietary licensing system you ask?
simple, it doesn’t work... example? this forum
people will always stay clear of proprietary system/licensing or they do the other route, pirate it no one likes to be restricted/limited. If they just want to learn your software, slim chance that they will be willing to pay. And if they do want to do a big commercial project with your code its almost guaranteed that they will pay for a licensing fee of sorts to avoid lawsuits etc.

Business model:
perhaps the UDK commercial licence fee is way to punishing (25% of profit after you've made $50k) but let say 5 to 10% after making 100k or a mix that is reasonable would be great (counting that the devs have other expenses using unity like buying the unity pro license itself). Keep in mind that this is an MMO engine, chances of them making $100k is quite big even with the current favourite model of "Play for free"/"Freemium" pay model.

But hey if you want a personal opinion, go the open source way
plenty of ways making money from it without even charging for the code itself
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Old 12-18-2012   #25
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Hey man, MMO's are not my thing. But I'm here to wish you the best of luck with your project, and I hope that you carve a spot in the gaming industry.
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Old 12-18-2012   #26
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Yes, the server backend is ready, written two times in both PHP and Java. I want indie developers to be able to host their games in a web hosting account using PHP (there are cheap unlimited plans), and developers with more resources can rent dedicated servers/clouds using Java. That's why I wrote one of the features of the toolkit is fully scalable networking. I created a compact data structure (de)serializer in C# (for Unity), PHP and Java to exchange information client-server. I'm using AJAX and HTML5 WebSocket for communication. Even made my own Websocket server from scratch about 8 months ago, supporting protocols 00 and 06 which are the most popular among browsers. I still have to implement a compression/encryption layer, but this can wait until the end of the project.

It took me 6 months to implement the foundation of the client, and I reached a critical point just a few weeks ago, at which I realized the rest of the project is pretty straight forward. As I said a matter a patiently implementing mechanics, since most of the difficult problems are solved, some of them being: data structures, serialization and communications, game states synchronization, creative developer workflow, inverse kinematics (non-Mecanim to allow Unity Free development/publishing), achievement logic, state machines, camera collision detection, etc. From the high-level mechanics I have implemented: quests, dialogs, achievements, inventories, locks, the wizard extension, and now I'm working on the combat designer which you have never seen in any other game. This toolkit will bring some more surprises, I promise

If you want to read some more discussions on the toolkit please look at:

Link(s):
 
Link(s):
 
Link(s):
 
Link(s):
 
Those discussions helped me to define about 20% of the current design document. That will give you a better idea of what the toolkit is and what I'm aiming to develop.

I'll take note of the licensing ideas, thanks! Indeed I like the F2P model, and the monetization feature of the toolkit will allow it.

Thank you again ppl, your interest in the project makes it worth
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Old 12-18-2012   #27
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@cronocr

ok so trying to wrap my head where exactly you are at.
since to be honest you video did not show any promising at all in relation to mmo framework.
sorry but that was my impression of it and looks like someone else mentioned the same.

so in other words you have unity client and a backend server so far, right.
and you just started to create basic mmo mechanics, right.

so why not just used unity client + smartfoxserver and will saved you all this months of dev time.
just trying to comprehend your head.

smartfox server is free. so i dont see the logic.
or project darkstar is open source.

why reinventing the wheel, i just cant wrap my head around. sorry.

so basucly you are in the step where if one would of grab unity + smartfoxserver and getting ready to start coding my game, right?

cheers
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Old 12-18-2012   #28
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cronocr, I really dig your confidence in the work you've done and the progress it sounds that you've made. I see your vision and you've got my support. The work you've done sounds pretty extensive. Although you say it will be completely free, be sure to at least post a Donate link when you're finished. Rather than wishing you luck, I'd like to wish you success
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Old 12-18-2012   #29
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@chillypalmer
Project Darkstar was killed by Oracle in 2010. Forked into RedDwarf server by the community.
SmartFoxServer 2X Community Edition has a limit of 100 concurrent users. And after that it's up to €3500.-- for the top-of-the-line version.
So I can see why he rolled his own.
But more likely, he had different ideas about how the others have implemented certain things. Or maybe he likes to be in control of his own destiny.
Also the people behind SmartFoxServer, did the same that cronocr did : roll their own, while Darkstar already existed for over 3 years and was just about to be killed off by Oracle.
And cronocr's MMO Server gives the option of PHP or Java which Darkstar and SmartfoxServer don't.
The guy who started Darkstar was also on his own when he started.
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Old 12-18-2012   #30
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Exactly what Run For Cover said. Those are the first reasons not to use Unity network, Photon, uLink, Smartfox, etc. After finishing the first version of the toolkit I will continue supporting and developing it, and I don't want to find out that the server technology or licenses are restricted some way, constraining future enhancements. The other reason is that networking in the toolkit is not only for the multiplayer, but also for socialization and monetization. I don't see easy ways to implement what I want on multiplayer-specific platforms, this sort of feature requires more control server-side. And the last reason is because I wanted to solve the challenge to test my skills, something I did months ago, and now it's ready

Also if you noticed I'm not building the 3D or Web engine, I chose Unity and HTML5. I would have chosen Mecanim to solve all the Inverse Kinematics, but I had to do it myself to give indie developers the possibility of using the toolkit. I'm even thinking on doing backward compatibility with Unity 3.x because of the new EULA issues in version 4:

Link(s):
 
That will depend on what Unity Technology defines. So I'm mostly looking for ways to give developers the highest flexibility, and if that means pushing my limits I will do it After all it's a cool challenge I'm willing to solve.
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Old 12-20-2012   #31
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This post reeks of bullshit
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Old 12-20-2012   #32
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and you just realized that?
lol
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Old 12-20-2012   #33
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Nah, bullshit is disposed by the system with auto-balanced degradation dynamics
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Old 12-20-2012   #34
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ugh, we are gonna have an influx of teenagers wanting to create the next MMO with this next year. im calling it now
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Old 12-21-2012   #35
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That means games with new and fresh ideas, but don't worry, old people will be able to use it too.
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Old 12-21-2012   #36
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Wow good luck!!! Hope.its free.
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Old 12-21-2012   #37
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Looks like a big scaled project. But wish you the best of luck and I will be awaiting its release since I am currently making a MMO project of my own.
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Old 12-22-2012   #38
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i am very sorry , and dont want to be mean to the op.
but this is a giant project and for a single developer,

we admire the developer courage and do not question his skills but
all this project by himself?
it is hands down ridiculous even giving him hopes to create it.

U wonder if he is a teenager feeling almighty.
please no disrespect. but need to put his feet on the ground already.
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Old 12-22-2012   #39
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@cronocr Where can i support this work?
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Old 12-22-2012   #40
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@chillypalmer: it's absolutely normal that people think this can't be done, when I started I wasn't sure I could finish it. But I really didn't pay attention to the forest of problems, just had fun reaching each tree. It was just after completing the system's foundation that I realized this is possible, and at the moment I'm just implementing the high-level logic of these mechanics. Anyway I'm not looking for motivation here, just want to let developers know that the toolkit will be available some time next year, so they start early with the other forest of problems that designing a game is.

@Dream0plyer: sorry I don't understand your question. EDIT: do you mean the supported platforms? Well, this toolkit is for Unity, so you can export for Windows, Mac and Linux. At the moment it will be for webplayer, since I need to take advantage of HMTL5 features.

Last edited by cronocr; 12-22-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 12-26-2012   #41
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Sounds good, good luck with your project.
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Old 12-26-2012   #42
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Similar words were used when people found out that the guy who wrote Darkstar was a one-man-team.
Look what came out of it. And where it is taken now. It even got him a job at Oracle.
A few people are different than the other billions on this earth.
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Old 01-01-2013   #43
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Hello Cronocr was wondering how the development was comming along.
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Old 01-01-2013   #44
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Sigh.. Another fucking MMO toolkit claiming the most advanced tech.

Also, "create whole games without programming". That's an oxy moron. Games made without programming are the point and case of cluster fuck.
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Old 01-01-2013   #45
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Happy new year!

@stewy8u: The toolkit is doing great, it will be released this year as planned.

@AnarchyRising: The idea is that creative developers don't have to worry about programming, I'll take care of that. Oh yeah, it's the most fucking advanced MMO toolkit!
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Old 01-01-2013   #46
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whats the ETA? not exact say which month if you have an idea? kind regards
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Old 01-01-2013   #47
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lol .. Ridiculous, there are idiots that hoped to make a mmo with a kit without programming .............
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Old 01-01-2013   #48
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@mirkophil: There is no estimated release time yet. I didn't want to publish the project until completion, but creative developers can work in parallel on their titles and then integrate the toolkit.

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------

There is people with good ideas and great designers, I want to give them a tool to create their games.

In the past studios were required to create their own engines, nowadays there exist a bunch of good engines to ease game development and you can clearly notice the evolution. But now when a new game is developed mechanics are re-invented, and due to lack of time these mechanics are watered down. To make better games we need tools that ease the high-level mechanics of games. By making such tool available I hope developers will be able to focus on the creative side of their projects (concept, story and design), and that will help to deliver games with high replayability value. My only concern is giving them as many options as possible and balancing that with a simple work-flow. I dropped several ideas in favor of easing the work-flow, but it seems the final product will allow the most advanced mechanics.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 AM ----------

As a little side note, with all the software patents around I feel way safer creating a mechanics toolkit than an engine. Since mechanics can't be patented you will probably see more programmers following this path in the future.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

This year will be working mostly on Unity and this project, so I'm releasing my previous personal projects as Open Source, mostly game development libraries and engines.

Root:

Link(s):
 
Old projects:

Link(s):
 
- 2D libraries in Assembly x86, for Turbo Assembler (DOS)
Link(s):
 
- 2D libraries in Pascal, for Turbo Pascal (DOS)
Link(s):
 
- 2D engine in Object Pascal, for Delphi (Windows)

Recent projects:

Link(s):
 
- 3D engine in Object Pascal, for FPC/Lazarus (Windows, MacOS, Linux)
Link(s):
 
- 3D engine in Object Pascal, for FPC/Lazarus (Windows, MacOS, Linux, Netscape plugin)
Link(s):
 
- 2D library (planned engine) in Actionscript 3, for Flash (Flash player)
Link(s):
 
- 2D (3D based) library (planned engine) in Objective C, for XCode (MacOS, iOS)

I'm a native Spanish speaker, but you will find some code in English. One of the reasons add a translation feature to the toolkit
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Old 01-02-2013   #49
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Well, I don't see how anyone's going to get a very complex game without programming (unless you're just planning to do a helluva lot of programming for them, that anticipates everything one would need to make something worthwhile). Games (especially MMOs) takes a lot of development, esp. when one wants to make their game unique. Characters, AI, networking, NPC creation, environments, weather systems, animations. And at the core unifying most of it is programming. But I'm guessing you already have some familiarity with that fact.

Though, I'd just like to state the more realistic side of developing MMOs anyways, just in case. But, unlike some of the naysayers here, I'm not going to bash you about it, either. I mean, seriously, why the fuck do people have to act all offended and bothered by it, as if it's costing them anything? I'll never understand why people walk around with a needless smug elitism about themselves. This is a place where all they have to do is skip what they don't like, but instead, they think they're achieving something in taking more time to negatively scoff someone who's done absolutely nothing wrong towards them. Grow a better attitude, guys.

To contribute some more realistic and useful opinion here, while I can see how one can make a template that'll do a lot of rough groundwork for you, I'm not sure if this toolkit will cater to the network programming needs of a MMO. If you've never done anything like it before, even with using a game engine, MMO network programming is like running a marathon. Perhaps you should consider recruiting and assembling a team of spare-time developers from the Unity forums, who'll consider doing this just for the free toolkit cause. I don't doubt you can do something like this, but I do know that it's a whole lot of work for one guy to make something like a (practically) programming-free toolkit, esp. for one of the most programming-heavy genres out there.

So hey, at least maybe perhaps you'll create something that'll at least serve as a useful MMO template for Unity. There are other MMO Unity toolkits out there that leave much to be desired. If you develop something more useful than the others, then you'll still be making a positive contribution there. You'd still be creating a useful tool that helps shave development time off for MMO developers. But hey, who knows? Who the hell am I or anyone else to scoff at this? If you do end up creating a practically no-programming-required solution, big kudos to you.

In any case, best of luck to you, and let's just see what happens.
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Last edited by Macrow; 01-02-2013 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 01-02-2013   #50
cronocr
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Well it's fine if people make negative comments about the project, in some way they are supporting it... each comment bumps this thread, and it gets more attention, heheh. And as weird as it sounds I try to avoid/forget the positive expectations on the project, since that makes me feel I'm building the toolkit to please everyone, an impossible task. But what really drives the work is the challenge of solving all those little problems, that's where the fun is. So yeah, people that believe in what you do are way more dangerous than naysayers, they will expect you to give them what you can't, they will find your ideas valuable and copy, sell and patent them. I still believe in both sincere support and sincere ass-kicking, it's just that if you are having fun with a challenge you shouldn't be affected by any comment.
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